Pont Noir

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Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by bobby • Thu 29 Jan 2009 21:00
Again I fail to understand how the rules work on Pontnoir that are set by Dave.

Quote
"Commercial promotional events are forbidden and these posts will be quickly deleted, as will events outside of the Creuse."

So why are these type of adverts constantly allowed to be listed?

If a plumber where to list the following it would be removed:

" For all appointments made for next week, you will receive a 10% discount and all boiler servicing will be 50 euros...blah blah blah. "

If a B&B put this then this would be removed:

" Rooms from 20 euros per night, meals available at 15 euros per head. Please call to make your reservation blah blah blah. "

So, why are Restaurant & Bars allowed to get away with it?

There seems to be two sets of rules. One set for those out there that run catering related businesses so that they can advertise til the cows come home. With some making very little effort to join in with any other post or topic that does not offer an advertising opportunity.

Then the other set of rules for all the non-catering related businesses who are not able to advertise but make contributions to the rest of the forum on various topics and issues making the forum a place where people will visit.

Can someone explain this to me? :?
bobby
12
May 2008
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by Dave • Thu 29 Jan 2009 23:15
I've moved this post here so that it isn't deleted when the event is (either when I decide you are right, or in six months automatically).

Under the What's on in 23 forum members can advertise any event taking place in the Creuse that isn't just a commercial event (like a Renault Guéret open day, or a free tasting of Jim's pies). This quite clearly includes, music events, sports events, dances, fetes, fairs, dances and dinners. Obviously most of these things will not be free and many will have a commercial element and so I must decide on balance whether they are interesting enough to members to accept the commercial part.

I agree that some events over the last two months have been borderline - and I have deleted some and edited others, but many members would have been interested in the "event" part - New Years dinners, free Music, Christmas dinner etc. I know that some members will shun these things, but others might welcome the opportunity to mix socially and celebrate these events as they used to in the UK.

I also agree that some tightening is needed as some "events" have tipped the balance towards commercialism - the "event" is just something to boost sales, for example "curry nights". I am also put off by events in bars and restaurants where entry is not free and also by events that happen each month, for example "mini-markets".

Perhaps it would help to explain my choices if I knew your position. Are you against these adverts because they annoy you or are you annoyed because you want to advertise something but can not?

I'm interested in what members feel about it, although I should make it quite clear that commercial adverts in the forums will never be accepted on Pont Noir.
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Dave
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Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by blaudeix • Fri 30 Jan 2009 09:37
Yup, I'm pretty much with bobby on this although I can see that these things are of interest to the general membership of PN, but then you could argue that that bloggs plumbing emergency repairs is of interest....
I don't believe that allowing a free for all on advertising would be good for the site either. I think Dave is with me on that one.

I imagined that the whats on section would/should be things that you've seen advertised you could let others know about, sheep dog trial, place bonnyaud, gueret. that sort of thing. Not advertising your own events. This of course can be circumvented by getting a friend to tell PN about your event... :roll:
What I think is the crux of the issue is people using PN solely to advertise their business, which happens to be a food estabilshment. If these food establishments were in the UK how would they advertise? why not do the same here?

I think that when you get a few that spoil it for the many, then it is the many that invariably loose out.

The other option is to ban persistent offenders and never allow their name to darken PN....but that seems a touch draconian :lol:

I can't see an easy way out that will please everybody and I'm glad I don't manage the site. There is of course the business spotlight..

Anyway I've got to go and do the finishing touches to my fosse tank open weekend...did I mention that I.....
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blaudeix
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Nov 2006
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by Dave • Fri 30 Jan 2009 10:04
"bloggs plumbing emergency" can have a free entry in the Directory should she care to fill one in.

You've summed up my idea of how I'd like this forum to work pretty nicely.

We have members that only come here to advertise (posting either a "commercial" event or selling their wares in the Small Ad's) without taking part in Pont Noir. That (in moderation) isn't a problem in itself (I expect many people come and read the site without ever signing up). I have a problem in only three cases

1. People tell me that they have some sort of "right" to advertise here or to write whatever they want.

2. People essentially SPAM the forum with dozens of posts for their stuff, fill their directory entry with products and prices and use all their posts, their profile and comments to promote their business. Then get annoyed when I delete it all and point them to the rules.

3. When members get upset about another member's use of the site (this happens more than you might think).

Other forums seem to be mainly advertising and small ad's of any kind, number and frequency and as a result they are pretty awful to read and members don't engage in those sites. I don't want Pont Noir to be another "free paper" forum, so we have some sensible limits and it seems that we also expect members to contribute a little before taking all the free stuff.
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Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by Lynn • Fri 30 Jan 2009 11:17
I find it very useful to see events advertised on here as it's all in one place and easily available. They cover quite a lot of La Creuse and so you can find something in your area.
I find the chitchat interesting and informative and think the balance is right at the moment with adverts in their present format.
Don't know if you wanted my opinion, but now you have it!!! :-)
Lynn
Lynn
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Apr 2008
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by amandaandclint • Fri 30 Jan 2009 12:03
I also have to say I agree with Bobby & Blaudeix.

Though I agree that it is useful for people to find out what is going on in the area, I do feel that certain posters get away with a considerable amount more than others.

I am not picking on anyone in particular so please do not take it to be this, but for the sake of argument the current top posting on 'Whats on in 23' which is from CHATAIGNERAIE cannot possibly be seen as anything other than a free advert. If you then look at all the posts they have ever done on Pont Noir, there are 30 in total and only 1 of that 30 is not in some way advertising their bar.

I know you mention that 'Bloggs Plumbing' can have an advert in the business directory, but so can bars and restaurants so technically they are getting free advertising and then are also allowed to advertise every time they hold an event.

I think if a bar was to do this on the odd occasion,this would be ok, but I do feel that certain posters are advertising too much for it to be fair.

From a personal point of view, when we held our first book swap in 2007, we also sold some of our greeting cards at the book swap as it was near christmas, we emailed Dave first to check it was ok to mention this and were told that the book swap bit was fine to be mentioned but we shouldnt really mention the sale bit as this would be seen as advertising. If I compare it to the Valentine Soiree then we should really have been allowed to attach a PDF price list as that is the equivellant to what they have done, (ticket prices etc).

I think it's hard for everyone to try and promote their business,and as I said I agree it should be ok for bars to advertise occasionally, but if there is this much flexibility with bars, then there should be more with other businesses.

I definately agree that it would be wrong for the forum to turn into a free advertising space as you say Dave and it must be extremely difficult to find a happy balance with this. But when I look in the Whats on in 23 section apart from a few posts from people recommending events etc, all I really see is a long list of certain establishments adverts which is exactly what you say you dont want there to be.
amandaandclint
117
Feb 2007
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by Dave • Fri 30 Jan 2009 13:39
Lynn, every members opinion is welcomed and I genuinely want feedback about the site (good or bad).

amandaandclint, I understand and sympathise with your view point. You see someone getting free advertising when you can not, but you might argue that with the link and tag-line in your signature every post you make here comes with its own small advert for your business. Right now I don't find that a problem, but should every member take this route and fill their signatures with links and photos and prices and alike I would then need to sort them all out, by setting an acceptable standard that would be far less than many would like.

This is just what I had to do with the small ad's because people were posting 10 messages in a row or advertising commercially in the guise of private ad's and replying to their own ad to have in appear at the top again, or posting the same ad every week. This was all very annoying and so now we have strict rules and no one can reply to small ad's. It is now far less flexible and still requires a lot of management because people don't read (or choose to ignore) the rules.

We are now in the same position with this forum. Most members are sensible but some are not and some of you are unhappy at what you see as unfair discrimination. Fine, but what that will mean is tighter rules on posting to this forum with less flexibility and more management for me. Plus less events listed that are borderline commercial.
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Dave
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Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by Hillbilly • Fri 30 Jan 2009 13:43
I could't help but notice that both blaudeix and amandaandclint have links to their respective business wesites on their letter pages.
Doesn't this constitute free advertising, or am I missing something?
Hillbilly
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Sep 2007
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by Dave • Fri 30 Jan 2009 13:58
Letter pages?
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Dave
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Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by Hillbilly • Fri 30 Jan 2009 14:53
Letter pages?
Sorry, I was referring to the "signature" at the end of the post.
Hillbilly
20
Sep 2007
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by blaudeix • Fri 30 Jan 2009 15:18
Yes it's true we do have a signature, you can too, and before I put it there I contacted Dave.
You can see an example of it below :)

Check out my posts, I don't just come here to say I've got an open weekend, come and play in my sand filter.

As I said above and nobody has tried to deny it, it's those that come here purely to promote their business and give nothing back to the forum that have raised this issue.

There are some forums that I belong to that will not let you post a for sale/wanted ad until you've racked up 30 posts - an idea Dave?
I don't think chirping into a thread and just saying I agree would count!

The most controversial (sp?) thread for ages :)
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blaudeix
163
Nov 2006
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by Dave • Fri 30 Jan 2009 15:55
There are some forums that I belong to that will not let you post a for sale/wanted ad until you've racked up 30 posts - an idea Dave?
That is something that I have considered but we have a lot of members who don't post much and it would be a shame to dis-bar them from posting an occasional small ad or from informing us about a event that they knew about just because they haven't posted enough. A 30 post minimum would exclude a great many members and at 5 or so posts it would help combat the "hit and run" types but it doesn't take much effort for the determined self advertiser to reply to 5 posts with "That's interesting" and we are back where we started.

As Pont Noir has a naturally small pool of potential members I do not want to have too many barriers for new members to become fully involved in the site, nor do I wish to create two classes of member.
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Dave
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Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by blaudeix • Fri 30 Jan 2009 17:28
fair points Dave, another angle would be that they have to be a member for a month before they can throw around for sale ads.
That would get rid of the post & go sorts! join, post a for sale ad and never hear from them again. It doesn't mean that they are more likely to ever post but stops those who have been surfing for places to put free ads for their stuff.

Oh did I tell you about my mud tasting weekend..... :mrgreen:
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blaudeix
163
Nov 2006
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by amandaandclint • Fri 30 Jan 2009 18:17
Having kept my eye on this, I thought I would just say that I agree with what Dave is saying regarding the situation. It is hard to define certain aspects and obviously if this was a 'yes or no' issue then I am assuming that this topic would have fallen on waste ground and not been given any thought.

Hillbilly, I agree that some of us do have business info in our signiture on our posts and Im not denying that. But, I / we dont have prices and photos etc listed. If Dave decided that this would not be something allowed in the future then we would remove it just like I am sure all the others would too.

Also, noting what Blaudiex mentioned, I would like to think that I dont just come on to this forum to advertise and I have gained some valuable informaton from other members in the past and would like to think that I have also offered info and assistance myself.

Our example of the cards/book swap was not because you were not happy that you were not allowed to advertise, and we accepted Daves explanation fully. I mentioned it as a possible example of a double standard. (That business is now under new ownership so its irrelevant now anyway) :wink:

Going back to the original issue as Bobby mentioned, its to do with 'why some can and some cant'.


Blaudiex..." Mud tasting"...??? Im assuming you would need lots of beer / wine to wash it down :lol:
amandaandclint
117
Feb 2007
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by David_J • Sat 31 Jan 2009 10:07
I enjoy Pont Noir and visit the forums most days to keep up with events and life out here. There are many events that happen in 23 and I would not know about a lot of them if I did not see them "advertised" on PM. I have entered the odd event that I know about to publicize it, hopefully for the benefit of all. It would be a shame to close this avenue of communication and I do not see how this would improve our lives.
Having said that, I can understand how many businesses would be unhappy with others getting what they see as free advertising but I fail to see the connection or competition between an establishment letting rooms and a restaurant promoting a special event.
David_J
ps . . Is there a venue or date yet for the mud wrestling?
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David_J
231
Aug 2006
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by rayh • Sat 31 Jan 2009 10:19
It's a thorny one, this!

I am irritated by how PN is used by some of the members.

But that's the trouble with free will, it has the habit of P***ing you off somtimes :)

Talking off free will, we all have the choice to ignore the adverts and move on!

If I want a service, I'll ask around about who does a good job, and if I like them I'll deal with them, if I don't, I won't.

so no amount of advertising on PN will influence me.

Dave's done the right thing, by confining them to small ads and what's on in 23.

If it's going to annoy you, don't read them!

Ray
rayh
167
May 2007
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by blaudeix • Sat 31 Jan 2009 11:13
If it's going to annoy you, don't read them!
It's not annoyance it's the percieved fairness of the situation which brings me back to bobbys original question.

and the mud wrestling has had to be postponed due to a sudden freeze, not as first thought due to a ground swell. :mrgreen:
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blaudeix
163
Nov 2006
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by bobby • Sat 31 Jan 2009 20:20
It looks like I have started something here :wink:

Just wanted to put a quick reply to the question asked earlier by Dave. I have nothing to advertise and nothing to sell. The adverts do not annoy me, it was more of an interest as to why some could and some couldn’t.

I agree with what Rayh said about how PN is used sometimes and that yes, on the whole you can ignore posts. 'I often do' but decided this time to ask the question to see what the reply would be.

Mentioning DavidJ’s post, I would have thought that you would fall in the category that Dave mentioned about adding event information of different events you know about so all is fine. Also no matter if a business is related to building or shopping or catering or (as you mentioned) renting a room, its not a matter of direct competition as there would be little as you mentioned. I would have thought it is more an issue of equal fairness.

I can appreciate that it is a tough job to govern the advertising posts in the ‘what’s on’ section. The ideas that blaudiex mentioned could be a good move but then it’s the matter of monitoring this that then becomes the issue. Maybe all we can do is hope that the serial advertisers cut down a little :roll:

I must admit that I have found it interesting to read the opinions of others on this topic. :wink:
bobby
12
May 2008
Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by Dave • Mon 02 Feb 2009 11:27
I have updated the rules for the What's on in 23 forum and I hope these will be fairer and clearer. I have also removed some listings and edited others (including the one that caused this thread), however I will be leaving in place the other listings to be pruned naturally even though some may now not be permitted under the new rules.

Since no-one has made any case for moderating this forum, I will continue to do it within the new rules.

Further to this and to ensure fairness, please can I ask all members not to advertise or link to their businesses using their profile signature - you may continue to use the "Home Page" field for any (non offensive) link - this then shows a WWW button under each of your posts. I get the feeling that this is going to become an issue and the only fair way to moderate it is not to allow signature advertising of any kind.
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Dave
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Re: Why can some people advertise and others can't?
by blaudeix • Mon 02 Feb 2009 12:36
I think that when you get a few that spoil it for the many, then it is the many that invariably loose out.
:roll: told you so :cry:

I thank you from the bottom of my signature CH*T*GN*R***

strange how the one that was the catylsyt for this thread hasn't chirped in, probably doesn't even know it exists... :roll:

On reflection...

Since it is less than a week since you talked of somebody moderating it and have alread made a decision it seems a rather unfair to those that perhaps only visit the site once a week. I think they use the term knee jerk in politics.
I would have moderated it but I'd have just deleted the fosse installations :mrgreen:

Since there's over 700 members and less then ten have had the inclination to chirp in to this thread the resturant/bar/market advertising doesn't seem to be a big issue (no, not the magazine)
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blaudeix
163
Nov 2006
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